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Post by Ingraham Hoyle on Jan 24, 2015 18:14:53 GMT
I recently diagnosed and tended to the wounds of a person whose wounds were already diagnosed. Having Miracle Worker allowed me to apply bonus dice to the healing check +1 per DoS if I rolled to Diagnose first. Assuming I don't catch anything out of the ordinary medically when making an Awareness check(passive or active) on an already-diagnosed wound or the patient, whose source of affliction is known to me, would I still gain bonus dice from first diagnosing said patient? My dungeon-sense says "no".
Additionally, the rulebook says I can add 2 test dice subtracted from my bonus dice. Eg. base bonus from diagnose before Heal is 2B, so Heal with Diagnose bonus w/o DoS is 8d6k4. Converting 2B to test dice makes it 6d6k6. My normal heal check is 6d6k4. Could I apply that at reduced capacity, converting 1 bonus into 1 test die to get 5d6k5?
Miracle Worker also allows the rank in Education specialty to be added to the result. Just so I'm being thorough when explaining in the OT what this benefit does.
My rulebook doesn't specify any limits to usage of this benefit...
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Post by Ayleth Bartheld on Jan 24, 2015 18:49:52 GMT
The breakdown of what it does.:
To all healing tests: miracle worker adds number of education specialties to the result.
You first need to use healing-diagnose, typically against TN 12, narrator discretion applies. Everyone gets +1D on the healing test to treat the patient for each DoS after the first, restricted upwards by the number of diagnose specialties you have.
Miracle worker then gives you +3B to your next healing test to treat the patient (assuming diagnose succeeds) and +1B for each additional DoS. You can convert two bonus dice into test dice.
I don't understand what you are asking about here.
Where does it say that?
No. You may swap two bonus dice gained from miracle worker benefit for one test die, and that's all there is to it.
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Post by Ingraham Hoyle on Jan 25, 2015 5:21:41 GMT
I don't understand what you are asking about here. Basically, on what grounds would Diagnosing a patient who's already been diagnosed grant bonuses to treat a patient? I'm starting to realize what I didn't understand. So any normal Diagnose check grants +1D per DoS after the first, ok. And someone with Miracle Worker making a Diagnose check would get +3B and +1D and +1B per additional DoS to treat the patient? |
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Crone
Sub-Narrator
Posts: 157 
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Post by Crone on Jan 25, 2015 13:39:43 GMT
Basically, on what grounds would Diagnosing a patient who's already been diagnosed grant bonuses to treat a patient? There is nothing saying you cannot diagnose a patient that has already been diagnosed. What if the first healer got it wrong? I'm starting to realize what I didn't understand. So any normal Diagnose check grants +1D per DoS after the first, ok. And someone with Miracle Worker making a Diagnose check would get +3B and +1D and +1B per additional DoS to treat the patient? Any Healer: for each DoS past the first, +1D (per page 63) Miracle Worker: for each DoS, +2B + 1B/per additional and may trade +2B from this benefit for +1D. It does not say this replaces the standard benefit. (per page 86) So With Miracle Worker, what you get from a Diagnose test would be: # DoS
| Bonus on Healing Check
| Bonus if using MW trade
| | 1 | +3B
| +1D & +1B
| 2
| +1D* & +4B
| +2D* & +2B**
| 3
| +2D* & +5B
| +3D* & +3B**
| 4
| +3D* & +6B
| +4D* & +4B**
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* Limited to +1D/specialty die in Diagnose (+1 in the case of using the trade) ** It is not clear if you can use the MW trade to turn +4B into +2D or +6B into +3D. My inclination is to say no, as the benefit is already extremely powerful. However that should be determined by Stranger. EDIT: see my post below for a possible issue with Miracle Worker. |
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Post by Damon Nettles on Jan 28, 2015 11:45:55 GMT
Taking an interest in this thread owing to Ingraham's crazy roll here. Crone, I believe you're mistaken on a few things. Firstly, regarding standard use of Diagnose to improve healing tests. The text in the GoT book says: A success is always equal to at least 1 DoS, so merely achieving that means you "understand the general problem", but grants no extra dice. To get +1D on the Healing test, you need a minimum of 2 DoS on your test. The maximum extra test dice you can get is therefore +3D (for 4 DoS). This also requires the character to have at least +3B in Diagnosis. I feel you're making a similar mistake with Miracle Worker. The text specifically says: Again, a success is always equal to at least 1 DoS, so to get the +2B, the healer must have at least 1 DoS, not 0 as you write in your table. By that reading, the number of +1B gained depends on how many DoS the healer rolled after the first one. The text from the rulebook does seem to contradict this, but I feel it follows from tha fact that at least 1 DoS is needed to get the +2B. So the maximum bonus dice you can get is +5B (+2B for the first DoS, plus 3 more for 4 DoS total). These dice would also be capped by the number of test dice rolled, per the usual rules. So let's take a healer with Healing 4 and Diagnosis 3B as an example. He rolls to diagnose and gets 3 DoS (it's a really obvious injury!). I read the rules as granting him the following benefits: +2D from the standard Diagnosis test. +4B from Miracle Worker, which can be turned into +1D and +2B by swapping two bonus dice. For some reason, he has no bonus dice in Treat Injury, so his healing test becomes: 4D for Healing +2D from Diagnosis test +4B from Miracle Worker = 6D+4B; by trading in his MW bonus dice, he could also roll 7D+2B. In any case, Miracle Worker will certainly live up to its name! Edit: Misread your post Crone - there's no difference in our interpretation of the standard Diagnosis test. Sorry! I'll leave my post as is, however, to keep the train of thought together. |
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Post by Ingraham Hoyle on Jan 28, 2015 12:41:24 GMT
Okay. So what determines the most DoS you can apply to consequences/anything that references DoS, your ability score? I'm sorry if I'm being a problem child.
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Post by Roland Hite on Jan 28, 2015 13:09:10 GMT
P32 of GoT edition of rules - beating by 15+ = four degrees. Note that this is 15+, not a range like the other DoS categories. Agree with Damon's interpretation btw. No problem on asking question!  |
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Crone
Sub-Narrator
Posts: 157
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Post by Crone on Jan 28, 2015 13:19:39 GMT
Wow, that's a real facepalm on my part. All of the DoS are off by one, which then drops the bottom row. 0 DoS does not give you a benefit... I must have been thinking "DoS past the first" and then neglected that when writing the labels and putting in the last row.  I'll update it now.Updated. ...but now I see an interpretation error that we all may have made. From the updated Ch. 5 PDF, pg 86 (emphasis added): Note the lack of "additional" in the highlighted section. However, I think this may be an error in the revision. It is worth noting that the errata document does not include an entry for Miracle Worker, but the benefit was completely rewritten. The pre-errata GoT version states: Although I think it is an error, I am going to update my chart above again to take the literal interpretation. |
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Post by Ingraham Hoyle on Jan 28, 2015 14:01:25 GMT
Ooohh. Wow that's a huge mistake on my part. I'll make a note of that somewhere.
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Crone
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Posts: 157
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Post by Crone on Jan 28, 2015 14:23:05 GMT
Don't forget too, you don't make the check when you do the treatment. The check is made 1 day after injuries are received or 1 week after a wound is received.
You should not make the test ahead of time, as the difficulty is based on the patient's activity level. Thus if the test is made early the patient would know how active they can be and still have a certain DoS on the treatment test.
Also, one visit will not suffice for the treatment. You need to spend time every day with a patient. So to treat Lord Dunstan's wound (mechanically) would commit you to traveling back to Mountain's Reach with House Tullison, though I see no reason why you could not RP treating him for a few days without any mechanical benefit.
Perhaps so long as the patient is treated every day, a healing test would be made by the worst healer that treated the patient?
How much time it takes per day is ambiguous as the book contradicts itself (and this has yet to be settled by Stranger)
According to pg. 167: "To use Healing, a healer must devote at least 4 hours per day of treatment to the injured character."
According to pg. 63: "To treat a patient in this way, you must attend to the patient, spending at least one hour every day the patient must rest (or not rest) cleaning the injury and changing bandages."
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Post by Damon Nettles on Jan 28, 2015 16:30:48 GMT
Wow, that's a real facepalm on my part. All of the DoS are off by one, which then drops the bottom row. 0 DoS does not give you a benefit... I must have been thinking "DoS past the first" and then neglected that when writing the labels and putting in the last row. I'll update it now.Updated. ...but now I see an interpretation error that we all may have made. From the updated Ch. 5 PDF, pg 86 (emphasis added): Note the lack of "additional" in the highlighted section. However, I think this may be an error in the revision. It is worth noting that the errata document does not include an entry for Miracle Worker, but the benefit was completely rewritten. The pre-errata GoT version states: Although I think it is an error, I am going to update my chart above again to take the literal interpretation. I don't think there's any compelling reason to go with the literal version in this case. As you showed, the original version contained the word additional, so that's a strong case for it being an editing error. Further, if you read the updated version literally, then it just becomes an extremely roundabout way of saying that 1 DoS gives you +3B on your next healing test. I'm also convinced that you can only swap a total of 2 bonus dice for 1 test die. Otherwise the text should have read something like: You may convert the bonus dice you gain into test dice, at the rate of one test die for two bonus dice. |
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Post by Ayleth Bartheld on Jan 28, 2015 17:21:27 GMT
Hmm, yes, the disappearance of that word seems quite peculiar, so I'd be inclined to suspect that was an error on their end.
I do not feel comfortable enough in my English to say whether "You may swap two bonus dice gained from this benefit into one extra
test die." restricts this to one swap or not. To my eyes, I'd say that I can see the case for it to be specified that you can only do so once if that was the intention being just as strong as the case for it to be specified the other way.
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Post by Ingraham Hoyle on Jan 28, 2015 17:57:16 GMT
Don't forget too, you don't make the check when you do the treatment. The check is made 1 day after injuries are received or 1 week after a wound is received. You should not make the test ahead of time, as the difficulty is based on the patient's activity level. Thus if the test is made early the patient would know how active they can be and still have a certain DoS on the treatment test. Also, one visit will not suffice for the treatment. You need to spend time every day with a patient. So to treat Lord Dunstan's wound (mechanically) would commit you to traveling back to Mountain's Reach with House Tullison, though I see no reason why you could not RP treating him for a few days without any mechanical benefit. Perhaps so long as the patient is treated every day, a healing test would be made by the worst healer that treated the patient? How much time it takes per day is ambiguous as the book contradicts itself (and this has yet to be settled by Stranger) According to pg. 167: "To use Healing, a healer must devote at least 4 hours per day of treatment to the injured character." According to pg. 63: "To treat a patient in this way, you must attend to the patient, spending at least one hour every day the patient must rest (or not rest) cleaning the injury and changing bandages." Well that all sounds very unnecessary as far as telling the player when they can/can't roll. And I'm not clocking in hours just to make each and every Treat Injury check I roll count for a proper, full treatment. |
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Warrior
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The Warrior stands before the foe, protecting us where e'er we go.
Posts: 220 
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Post by Warrior on Jan 28, 2015 19:12:36 GMT
Ingraham, you don't need to devote loads of posts or spend hours logged on in real life. I'd just note which timeslots you're allocating. Stops one awesome healer serving a whole castle/tournament and lets more people shine. Or, as it's A Song of Ice and Fire, it lets more people politic/bribe to get you to devote time to treating them instead. |
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Post by Ingraham Hoyle on Jan 28, 2015 20:20:14 GMT
I meant in-game, obviously. It's just different from what I'm used to and it feels terribly OCD.
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