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Post by Kyl Farwynd on Jan 28, 2015 3:46:36 GMT
Since there are no – as in zip-point-squat- rules about seafaring in the books, we should come up with our own. While it is not a big deal at the moment, I thought it would be better to get some decisions out in the open before anybodies fate is hanging on them.
I can think of two important activities that we need to consider if there is going to be any seafaring in this game.
Captaining a Ship:
I am thinking that this is a “Will/Coordinate” Check. This is the closest combination of skills and abilities that lines up with this task. The second closest - in my mind - would be using the Will ability with the Command specialty. I don't believe that Warfare ability is a great option, as not all ships are warships.
I think to be able to captain a ship under normal circumstances, you need pass a 'Formidable (12) Passive Skill Check', which means you need to have a Will ability of 3 to Captain a Ship.
The +1D for 'Blood of the Iron Men' benefit should apply all captaincy checks, including passive checks.
Navigating
There are two obvious choices here. One is simply to use the Orientation/Survival combination. The other option is to use the Knowledge Ability with the Orientation Skill for bonus dice.
My slight preference is to use Knowledge/Orientation combination.
The +1D for 'Blood of the Iron Men' benefit should apply here as well.
I would be curious what you all think. I think this proposal is a reasonable start, but can probably be improved upon.
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Post by Walton Dulver on Jan 28, 2015 13:02:07 GMT
Not all Ships are Warships. So maybe to have usual Ship, it would be enough to buy only Sailors unit and get ship with them? Sailors cost 4 power, what is pretty high comparing to their usage. They have the same difficulty modifier as Warships, so here also won't be complications, just Warships wouldn't get penalties in battle time and could fight like warships  Will (Coordinate) outside battle, Warfare (Command) inside battle? there are Sailors and Warships units, so maybe skill check diffculty could be just based on their experience level + conditions penalties due to weather condition. Here hiring officers and specialists could be also added, so we could have someone like Canoneer equivalent, who would add Marksmanship as bonus dices in battles, first officers to assist in navigating/captaining, etc... To set speed and direction Knowledge bonus dices from something like Streetwise (Summer Seas for example), or something like that, what would make the difference also between captains who know area from those who don't. Survival (Orientation) could be just rolled in extreme situations like storms or after storms to set position then. Or at all to set ships' position- this is pretty important, i believe that important enough to have extra roll for that, especially in open sea. And to set speed and direction Knowledge (+B from Streetwise)+number of extra dices in Orientation. will edit this post maybe later xD Could be pretty chaotic as can't give 100% of attention now, but hopefully it's understandable?xD |
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Father
Sub-Narrator
Posts: 133 
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Post by Father on Jan 28, 2015 15:00:11 GMT
When it comes to abilities meant to persuade or coordinate large groups of people, I'd suspect that warfare would be the most accurate. Despite the name having to do with "War", it might make sense for all the tests on a ship to be Warfare/Command... or at least Will/Command or Persuasion/Command (I tend to allow ability substitutions with either the same TN or a slightly raised TN, so perhaps +3 or +6 depending on the task being attempted). But that's just me... it'll likely come down to your Narrator at the time to determine what's the most appropriate.
As Blood of the Ironmen only applies to Athletics tests, it would not apply to this command test (Though the individual sailors performing athletics tests while at sea most certainly would get the bonus).
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Post by Walton Dulver on Jan 28, 2015 16:06:01 GMT
yeah, but there are also non-war ships, in which case using warfare would be missed, i think.
EDIT: and being captain, sailing and navigating are pretty far from warfare skills... we don't have to look far- Walton is nice war leader, but it shouldn't make him good captain and especially sailor xD for example 'even' Harwyn would be better as someone who can read from stars as hunter in navigating, and Lord Harald as captain, as someone persuasive and good steward...
we have solved warships warfare stuff in books, but Kyl meant that there is not much about sailing-sailing
EDIT: are there under one of skills +B from Expertise in something? don't have book in front of me :/
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Crone
Sub-Narrator
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Post by Crone on Jan 28, 2015 23:17:41 GMT
I don't think we really need to come up with any new rules for this. Everything would work the same way it would on land.
Under normal circumstances no test should be necessary to be in command of a ship, much like no test is necessary to be in command of a military unit.
Short of a mutiny, your orders would be followed. If there are mutinous individuals, you have the full range of intrigue options to convince them to obey (including switching to combat to have your loyal soldiers grab them and tie them up for a flogging).
If there are unusual circumstances (say, a tremendous storm) it might be useful for a captain to use Will(Coordinate) to make his crew more effective in the face of penalties.
Navigation would of course be Survival(Orientation), perhaps with a bonus for having proper equipment (sextant, compass, maybe far-eyes), or maybe a penalty for not.
Of course, naval combat can be handled as a combat or a war, whichever is more appropriate to the scale of the conflict.
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Post by Kyl Farwynd on Jan 29, 2015 4:09:10 GMT
Crone stated that "Navigation would of course be Survival(Orientation)..."
I am not entirely convinced that survival is the best ability, but only for the simple reason that in my mind that it seems like it takes a different set of skills. I have no real world knowledge of either skill, so this is more an impression, rather than a hardline position.
When looking at the whole 'Captaincy thing'. Since cowing a mutinous crew seems like a fairly important skill to have in all good seagoing yarns, the implications are that a healthy investment intimidation would be a good thing. Is this in line with what you are thinking?
***Warning**** Whining Ahead****Warning***
It seems odd to me that 'Blood of the Ironmen' would not impart some kind of benefit to Captaining a ship, but to be fair, I am struggling to find a balanced to do it. The athletics bonus, while not of an Errol Flynn/Jack Sparrow type bonus to agility, does not seem to have the grim connotations that I would associate with the Ironmen. I am not sure what the alternative would be though.
Anyway, there are $0.02 to add to the discussion.
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Crone
Sub-Narrator
Posts: 157
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Post by Crone on Jan 29, 2015 13:43:24 GMT
The skills to navigate on land and on sea are not the same, but within the level of abstraction of the game mechanics, I would feel comfortable calling them both Survival(Orienteering). If anything, we could create a new specialty for Survival, but I do not think that is necessary or particularly a good idea.
Yes, you can try to keep your crew intimidated to keep them in line, though that would probably lead to more mutinies in the long run (intimidate lowers your opponent's disposition, making them less inclined to obey your orders in the future).
Blood of the Ironborn is for all Ironborn, not just captains. Most Ironborn are not captains. The athletics bonus is because most of the things a (non-officer) sailor will be doing are athletics-based: climbing rigging, pulling on ropes, hauling things around deck, and if they get unlucky, swimming (historically many sailors did not know how to swim- unless your ship was destroyed you could make a career out of sailing without ever going deeper in the water than chest-high).
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Post by Kyl Farwynd on Jan 29, 2015 14:54:26 GMT
OK...most of that makes some sense. I would be curious what the stranger thinks, but I am not violently opposed to any of this.
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It's set just before the historic Blacks v Greens period